CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM HEATED DEBATE (PART 2) - FINAL
Hi friends, thank you for your patience! I’m excited to share with you part two of our ongoing debate. This has been a thorough process, as I’ve had to carefully review and compile the hours of recordings, extract key points, while at the same time, devoting time to my studies and pastoral duties.
If you haven’t yet read part 1, I highly recommend you start there by clicking the link below before reading part 2.
Part 1 link: https://www.facebook.com/share/p/RcSqkBJpkdZxTyaV/?mibextid=oFDknk
Meanwhile, for those who have read part 1, I hope you find this second part interesting and inspiring. It is quite long because I didn't want to make any part 3, please read patiently and see how they got converted in the end. Do feel free to share your thoughts in the comments, follow for more teachings, and spread the word by sharing with others. I remain open to further discussions on this important matter.
Happy reading!
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Fr. Chinaka, peace be upon you. I refer to my last message to you, stating my belief as a staunch Muslim who respects Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet, but I cannot accept that He claimed divinity. I believe the Bible does not contain any direct statement from Jesus where He says, “I am God, worship me.” What do you have to say about this?!
FR. CHINAKA: Peace be with you too, Dr Ibrahim! Before we go deeper into this argument, I notice you’ve used the phrase “peace be upon him” when referring to Jesus several times. While I understand this is customary in Islamic tradition, I’d like to point out that, according to your own Quran, it might not be entirely appropriate to say this in reference to Jesus. In Surah 4:158, it says that Allah “raised Him up to Himself.” Therefore, if Jesus is with Allah, He is already at peace. Besides, in Surah 19:33, Jesus Himself says, “Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I will be raised up to life again.” If Allah has already assured that Jesus is at peace by raising Him to Himself, saying ‘peace be upon him’ almost implies that He still requires peace just like an ordinary person who have died, as if He is not at rest. It’s somewhat like saying ‘rest in peace’ to someone who is already exalted in paradise. So, out of respect for your own Quran, I suggest we refrain from this phrase when referring to Jesus.
Now, let’s address your main concern about Jesus’ divinity. You asked for a direct statement from Jesus in the Bible where He says, “I am God, worship me.” Let’s examine this step by step. First, do you accept that Jesus made other statements that, in the Jewish context, were clearly understood as claims to divinity?
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Thank you for the clarification on the phrase “peace be upon him.” I can see your point, though I’ve never thought it that way, but we use it out of respect. But in this argument, I will avoid it, for theological clarity and for your belief.
That aside, on Jesus’ claim to divinity in the Jewish context, I know you're about to quote the famous “I AM.” Yes, I have seen how you argued in one of your posts that Jesus made such statement, which you interpreted as a claim to divinity. But we must be clear: Jesus never said outright that He was God. If He was truly God, wouldn't He have made that clear to avoid any confusion? What I am looking for is a direct statement. Also, the Bible says that Jesus prayed to God (e.g., in the Garden of Gethsemane). If He were God, why would He pray to another?
FR. CHINAKA: I see… But let me respond to each of your points in turn. First, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus did, in fact, claim divinity in a way that His Jewish audience would immediately recognize. For instance, in John 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I Am.” This is not just a casual statement. The phrase “I Am” directly parallels the divine name revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, where God says, “I AM WHO I AM.” The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming here, which is why they immediately picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.
In a similar way, at His trial before the Sanhedrin, the High Priest asked Him directly if He was the Christ, the Son of God, and Jesus responded, “You have said so” (Matthew 26:64), affirming His identity. The High Priest tore his robes, accusing Him of blasphemy, because to claim to be the Son of God in that context was understood as claiming equality with God. Jesus made His identity known in ways consistent with Jewish understanding, and he was well understood.
As for your question about why Jesus prayed to the Father, you must remember that we Christians believe in the Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – three distinct Persons, yet one God. In His human nature, Jesus prayed to the Father, not because He was a lesser god, but because of His humility, a path He voluntarily chose as seen in Philippians 2:6-11: “Though He was in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God, a thing to be grasp, He humbled Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men…”
And you must also note that prayer doesn't always or automatically mean submission to a higher authority; rather, it can mean communication, blessing, or relationship. Just as the Quran speaks of Allah “praying” or sending blessings upon His prophets and followers in the original Arabic language (cf. Surah Al-Baqarah 2:157 and Surah Al-Ahzab 33:56), it can be understood that Jesus, as part of the Holy Trinity, prays as a means of communication with the Father, not as an act of subordination.
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Fr. CJay, I’m a very honest person. I need you to convince me more to believe this truth. While I’m still not convinced, I need this to sink into your heart – in Surah 5:116, it’s made clear that Jesus would never claim divinity. Allah will ask Jesus on the Day of Judgment, “Did you say to people, ‘Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah?’” And Jesus will respond, “Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say.” This proves that Jesus never claimed divinity and rejected any notion of being worshiped.
FR. CHINAKA: First, nowhere in the Bible or Christian Tradition is it written for us to take both Jesus and His Mother as gods. The Christian faith upholds that the Blessed Virgin Mary be honoured, as she herself said it in the Bible “all generations will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48), she is not divine and is never worshipped. So, while Mary is not God, Sacred Scripture, which existed 600 years before Islam, affirms strongly that Jesus is God.
One of the most affirmations of Jesus' divinity is found in the opening verse of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). When we place emphasis on the last couple of terms in that passage, we read: “and the Word was God" in Greek, “kai Theos ēn ho Lógos” (καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος). Here, Jesus is referred to as "the Word" (ὁ Λόγος, ho Lógos), and John is not simply calling Jesus a messenger of God or a prophet. The verse explicitly states that Jesus, as the Word, was God. This is an unambiguous declaration of Jesus’ divinity. And you know that in the Quran, Jesus is also referred to as “the Word” of Allah. In Surah 3:45, the Quran says that Jesus is “His Word” (kalimah) that He cast down to Mary and a “Spirit from Him.” This description of Jesus as the “Word” tallies with the Christian understanding of Jesus as the Word of God, which John 1:1 declares to be divine. So, the Quran, in this regard, points to something unique about Jesus – He is not created like other prophets, but rather comes directly from God as His Word and Spirit. This sets Jesus apart from all other prophets.
To call Jesus simply a “mere man” or “mere prophet” is a rejection of the truth found in both the Quran and the Bible, and the fact that He is described as a spirit and Word of Allah in the Quran with titles that suggest His pre-existence and divine origin. This idea is perfected in John 1:1, which points clearly to the pre-existence of Jesus before the creation of the world. Jesus existed with God and was God even before His incarnation as a man. Therefore, Jesus cannot be just another prophet like those before Him; He is the eternal Word of God who took on human flesh (John 1:14). Thus, while the Quran recognizes Jesus as the Word of God and a Spirit from God, it stops short of acknowledging His divinity. But this Word and Spirit, who pre-existed creation and came into the world as man, cannot merely be a human prophet. His very nature as the divine Word, as affirmed in both the Bible and implicitly in the Quran, testifies to His unique identity as God.
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: You seem to have made a beautiful analysis. But my doubt remains – how can a God really come down to the world as man? That is impossible!
FR. CHINAKA: I understand your difficulty in accepting the idea of God becoming man Dr., as it can seem impossible from a human perspective. However, both the Quran and the Bible prove the possibility to us. Doesn’t the Quran affirm that Allah can do all things? In Surah 2:117, it says, “To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: when He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.” This means that nothing is impossible for Allah. Also, in Surah 27:8-9, Allah Himself appears to Moses in the form of a burning bush. Here, we see Allah manifesting Himself in a physical form – something created (fire). If Allah can manifest through something as simple as fire, then why should it be impossible for Him to take on human form if He so wills? And when Mary questioned how she could bear a son without a man, Allah responded, “He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.” If Allah can bring about the miraculous conception of Jesus, why should we doubt His power to come into the world as a man? So, if Allah is truly almighty, as the Quran and the Bible affirm, there should be no doubt about His ability to enter into creation, even as a human being. After all, nothing is impossible for God.
If we both accept that Allah can do anything, then we should not limit His ability to reveal Himself in the manner He chooses – whether through a burning bush or by taking on human form. So, why should it be impossible for God, who created everything, to take on human flesh to save humanity?
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Sounds true, but the Quran, which is perfect, well detailed and complete does not say all these.
FR. CHINAKA: I will simply tell you that the Quran, in a way, points to the Bible for its better understanding. If you read the Quran properly, and eventually hear of the Biblical truth, you should be led by the Holy Spirit to become a Christian. This is why I believe that the Quran is somehow a step in helping you become a Christian. Now, consider the areas that talk about the life of Christ… This is most likely to have been drawn from pseudo-gospels or non-canonical Christian writings because the stories of Jesus in the Quran resemble stories found in those non-canonical literatures that were not accepted into the Bible in the fourth century (before Islam). For instance, the story of Jesus’ Speaking as an Infant in Surah 19:29-30, depicting Jesus talking while still in the cradle. This story is not found in the canonical Gospels but is present in the Infancy Gospel of St. Thomas, a non-canonical text from early Christianity. This raises the question: if the Quran is supposed to be a direct revelation from God, why does it include a story absent from the canonical Gospels but present in what we refer to as false (apocryphal) texts? The Infancy Gospel of Thomas was not accepted by early Christian communities due to its speculative nature.
Also, in Surah 3:49 and Surah 5:110, the Quran describes Jesus creating birds from clay and breathing life into them. This miracle is not recorded in the canonical Gospels in the Bible but is found in the Infancy Gospel of St. Thomas, an apocryphal text written 600 years before Islam and known in the Christian Community then.
Now, as the Quran portrays Jesus as a prophet and servant of Allah, denying His divinity (Surah 4:171), this idea is not strange for it mirrors certain Gnostic ideas, such as those found in the Gospel of Barnabas and other apocryphal texts, where Jesus is described in purely human terms, denying His divine nature. The Gnostic tradition, which was considered heretical by the early Church, viewed Jesus as a lesser, purely human figure or a divine being in disguise, depending on the specific text. Thus, the Islamic narrative of Jesus seems more in line with these heretical views of early Christianity even before the advent of Islam.
Lemme drop my last point before I present the major points before you. The Quran denies the crucifixion of Jesus in Surah 4:157, stating that it was made to appear as though Jesus was crucified but that He was not actually killed. Even this belief parallels the teachings of some Gnostic sects, like the Gospel of Judas, where Gnostic beliefs portray Jesus as not suffering physically on the cross, or where someone else is substituted in his place. The Gospel of Judas, a Gnostic text dated to the 2nd century, presents a unique perspective where Judas Iscariot is depicted as playing a role in releasing Jesus from his physical body, suggesting that Jesus did not undergo physical suffering in the same way that orthodox Christian teachings hold. This doctrine was rejected by the early Church as heretical way before Islam arrived. The resemblance of this Quranic claim to Gnostic ideas raises questions about the sources the Quran drew upon. These are critical and serious issues that I need clear responses from you, doctor!
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Wait! let’s come on Google Meet, Hassan my colleague has a lot to tell you. We’ve been together since lunch time. I will send you the link shortly.
FR. CHINAKA: [Thinking 💭 aloud, oh, I’ve been arguing against two...] Alright, lemme make my environment conducive, and do not forget to record it.
[GOOGLE MEET SESSION…]
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Hassan speaks up…] Thanks for raising all these claims. Returning to your argument that Islam copied from your apocryphal gospels, we know for sure that Islam did not copy or borrow ideas from the Gnostic Gospels or the false gospels that were removed. That they appear in the Quran simply indicates Allah’s way of validating that those gospels you took off your Bible were indeed valid and that Christianity was mistaken, and Islam needed to come and rectify the falsity in Christianity.
FR. CHINAKA: Wow! I’m speechless. You've not answered my questions. I’ll take it as your “escapist statement.” No worries… Let us deal with the crux of our argument. Since your main argument is for me to show you in the Bible where Jesus says “I’m God, worship me.” Before answering you directly, I’d also like to ask you: you both accept that Jesus is the Messiah and a prophet, correct? Where in the Quran does Jesus say, “I am the Messiah” or “I am a prophet”?
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: Yes, Jesus is a Prophet and the Messiah. However, Jesus does not explicitly say, “I am the Messiah” or “I am a prophet” in the Quran, but I believe it because Allah revealed it in the Quran. Since you claim to know the Quran, take your mind to Surah 3:45, Allah says that Jesus is the Messiah. So, we accept what Allah has revealed. But still, this is different from claiming divinity. There is nothing in the Bible where Jesus explicitly says He is God. Even if the Jews misunderstood His statements, that doesn’t mean He was claiming to be God. Prove this, and I will become a Christian!
FR. CHINAKA: Ok, you are willing to accept that Jesus is the Messiah based on what Allah says in the Quran, even though Jesus Himself does not make that claim explicitly. I see! So, going by your logic, then, shouldn't you also accept what God says about Jesus in the Bible, even if Jesus does not say it in the exact words you are looking for?
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: How exactly do you mean?
FR. CHINAKA: For instance, in Hebrews 1:8, God the Father speaks of Jesus: “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the sceptre of justice is the sceptre of Your kingdom.’” Here, God Himself calls Jesus “God.” This is a divine affirmation of Jesus’ identity, much like how Allah affirms Jesus as the Messiah in the Quran. Do you agree to this?
[I noticed the confusion between both of them, one checking his phone to browse the Bible online, while the other who couldn’t hide his confusion, mutters some unintelligible words]
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Hassan spoke up, while still checking his phone]. You said Hebrews chapter 1 verse what?
FR. CHINAKA: Verse 8, but read from verse 5 to understand the context.
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Reading…and reaching verse 8…]: “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the sceptre of justice is the sceptre of Your kingdom.’” [One of them letting out a sigh, and says to the other, what do you think? Then they muted the video and spoke for a minute, in what seemed like a kind of dispute or mini conflict among them, and Hassan said]: But should I build my faith only on this Scriptural verse to prove Jesus is God? It is not so solid for us [Dr. Ibrahim interrupted, speak for yourself, for me, it is clear. And Hassam asked again]: show me from the Bible other proofs of Jesus’ divinity?
FR. CHINAKA: Okay, I expected this question, and I’m prepared for it. Let’s turn to Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says, “I am the First and the Last, and the Living One. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore.” Now, compare this to Surah 57:3 in the Quran, where Allah is described as “the First and the Last.” How do you reconcile the fact that both Jesus and Allah claim this title? Mind you, the Scriptures were written about 600 years before Islam.
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Hassan speaks up]. Well, we believe this title belongs only to Allah. But still, I am cautious because we believe the Bible has been altered and corrupted over time. Even though these passages may exist, we cannot trust them fully.
FR. CHINAKA: But let’s be clear: the Quran itself never claims that the Torah and the Gospels were completely corrupted. Surah 5:47 even says, “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.” If the Gospels were truly corrupted, why would Allah tell the Christians to judge by them? The Bible, especially the New Testament, was written by eyewitnesses and those who received testimony from eyewitnesses. These texts were preserved with care. The message of Jesus' divinity is consistent throughout the New Testament. You asked for a clear statement from Jesus, and while He does not literally say “I am God, worship me” in those exact words, His actions, titles, and the divine affirmation from both God the Father and Himself leave no doubt about His divinity.
If you accept Allah’s revelation about Jesus being the Messiah, why not accept God’s revelation in the Bible that Jesus is also divine?
Okay, let me return to Jesus as the Word of Allah, according to your Quran. Now, I need your response – true/false: In human terms, when a person speaks a word, that word is intrinsically linked to the speaker. It reflects the nature of the person speaking. A human's word, therefore, is human. True/False?
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Both answered unanimously] True!
FR. CHINAKA: Thank you for your honest response. The Quran explicitly refers to Jesus as the "Word of Allah" in Surah 4:171. This phrase, "His Word," carries great implications, and I will prove it. If Allah, who is divine, speaks a word, that word cannot be anything less than divine because the very nature of the word must be reflective of the nature of the one who utters it. If Jesus is the "Word of Allah," then He shares in the divine essence because Allah’s word cannot be mere creation; it must be a part of His eternal nature. Even, this is also supported in Surah 3:45, where Jesus is called a "Word from Him," further strengthening our understanding of the unique and eternal nature of Jesus. Do you agree with this?
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: [Dr. Ibrahim answers Yes, while Hassan remains quiet]. Then Dr. Ibrahim added, what about the words of Jesus? If the Word of Allah is divine as you have shown, and equally illustrated as Jesus, how about the words of Jesus, which being would it produce? And please, I want us to continue this argument the video, maybe returning to Facebook Messenger.
[Google Meet video call ends…and I quickly went to Messenger to drop the response]
FR. CHINAKA: Greetings, Dr. Ibrahim. I trust you are good today. Returning to your last question concerning Jesus’ words, the Bible answers this directly where Jesus Himself says: “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” (John 6:63). Here, Jesus is clearly saying that His words are not just ordinary words but are spiritual and life-giving, the same with the Father. This also explains why in John 5:25, Jesus says: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." This is an indication of Jesus' divine authority and power over life and death. He proclaims that at the sound of His voice – the Word of God – the dead will rise. And remember that the Quran, in Surah 2:258, states that Allah is the one who gives life and death. So, when we connect this with John 5:25, where Jesus says, “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live,” we see a strong parallel. Jesus is claiming the very power that the Quran attributes solely to Allah – He can give life through His word. This is a direct assertion of divine authority. Jesus, by His word, can raise the dead, both spiritually and physically, just as Allah is described as the one who gives life in the Quran. Also, in John 11:25, Jesus further weighs into this truth by declaring, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live." This shows that Jesus not only speaks of life but is Himself the source of life, an ability that, according to the Quran, belongs to Allah alone. Therefore, He that gives me life, that is in fact, my hope of resurrection and life will always be my God.
[Message delivered and seen on Messenger but there was no response until after three days]
MUSLIM SCHOLARS: Hello, dear brother! How are you? We were not disposed for this discussion for some days, because we needed to make more research and ask more questions from other colleagues after our Jumu'ah, but the answers we got were not sufficient enough to convince us, and I was disappointed. Hassan will travel to Egypt by next week and stay for a while before I join him because his visit visa is due, but believe us, both of us have understood you properly, having taken into consideration all you have put together. Remember, I told you “I’m a honest person.” I never understood all these the way you’ve explained, and to be honest, we are holding unto these teachings for now. We need you to compile all these are send to us. We can talk better on the phone. Before we end our chat, I would like to ask whether you have more truths from the Quran about Jesus’ divinity?
FR. CHINAKA: Hello, dear brothers! I am glad to hear from you and even more encouraged that our discussions have been fruitful. Your openness and honesty are deeply appreciated, and I will gladly compile everything we've covered so far and send it to you. It’s important that these matters are understood clearly and that we approach them with sincerity, just as you’ve done. Well, there are a host of points that could be made for you from the Quran pointing to the divinity of Jesus. Before we close up this chapter, I will like to clarify further one of my earlier points regarding Surah 3:55, which says that Allah raised Jesus to Himself: “Allah said, O Isa (Jesus), I will take you and raise you to Myself...” Here, the Quran is clear that Jesus was taken up to Allah. Now, Surah 57:4 says that Allah is above all creation, beyond space and time. If Allah raised Jesus to Himself, and Allah is above all creation, then Jesus too must be above all creation. And if Jesus is raised to be with Allah, and Allah is above creation, Jesus cannot be a creature, for a creature can never exist above creation. He must partake in a divine reality, which makes Him more than a prophet or a servant.
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Awesome! Jesus bless you, Father Chinaka! The reality gets better. I expect your compiled teachings. Also, which Church should we go to so that a Roman Catholic Priest like you can also tutor us likewise? And can we receive the Communion? Brother Hassan sends his greetings.
FR. CHINAKA: I’ll compile the teachings Dr., but I also need you to send me the recorded videos to compile them all. Check for the nearby Roman Catholic Church in your vicinity, and introduce yourselves to the Parish Priest, and also explain your situation. Before you receive Holy Communion, you have to undergo a period of Catechesis in order to understand the faith more deeply, learn the teachings of the Church, and prepare your hearts and minds to fully embrace the Sacraments. This process will guide you through the foundational aspects of the Christian faith, including the sacraments, the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the significance of the Eucharist. Once you have completed this formation, and after further discernment, you will be able to receive the sacraments, including Baptism and Holy Communion.
Meanwhile, I’ll assist your conversion journey by preparing a one-year catechetical plan. So, we are in this together, okay. Feel free to reach out to me or your local priest if you have any questions or concerns during this journey. I'm here to support you every step of the way.
MUSLIM SCHOLAR: You can suspend the doctor title, please. I feel so embarrassed with it. I will send the video, but do not publish them yet. You can go ahead and compile the teachings and publish them for other Muslim brothers. It is highly inspirational. Thank you once again, Catholic Priest.
FR. CHINAKA: You are always welcome, my friend. I pray that God will guide you on your journey. If you ever have more questions, feel free to reach out again. I'm at your pastoral service. Peace be with you (Shalom).
[THE END...]
Dear friends, let's have our deer brothers and new converts - Ibrahim and Hassan in our prayers.
You're free to share this post...
Fr. Chinaka Justin Mbaeri, OSJ
#SoulOfAMissionary
Write a comment
Write a comment
Ping a particular user